Submitted by Wease on October 22, 2006 - 2:59pm
For some odd reason lately, I have been having a lot of discussions about rules of the road. Especially, stop signs. Personally, I hate stopping and often run them, but I get enraged when motorists run them in my presence.
Am I a total hipocrit or is there more to the issue?
When I am coming up to a stop sign I slow down enough so that I could stop if I really had to, and I look both ways, just for the sake of self-preservation. If the way is clear I accelerate and I'm on my way. I don't consider that to be blowing the stop sign.
Now if I did not slow down at all and didn't look but just went through at speed, that would be a different story.
I don't think you're a hipocrite: cars are much heaiver and less maneuvearable than bikes, and they just don't have what it takes to negotiate stop signs as elegantly as bikes. Even under the, um, skilled hands of the drivers in this town.
The Sgt. is right. Cars are multi-ton killing machines, your bike is not. Bikers should ride in a way that is safe for 1) pedestrians and other bikers and 2) themselves. If you can safely roll through a stop sign, more power to you. Don't most cars roll through stop signs anyway? I think that the law is even on the biker's side in may places. I've heard that a stop sign is often considered a yield sign for bikes (not sure how accurate that is though).
As far as becoming enraged at motorists, I prefer to let them do their thing and not let it upset me unless 1) they try to kill me, or 2) they yell something at me that demonstrates their gross ignorance.
Yeah, I agree with what everyone is saying, but it still doesn't help me when talking with right wing car loving nuts, such as half my frick'n family and most of the North America.
So we are on the up and up the *facts* from my perspective are:
That all said, when I am discussing this with right wing hardcore motorists all the commonsense logic I presented above goes flying out the window. It becomes the simple fact that rolling a stop sign is *technically* illegal (see effective cycling) and therefore they have lost all respect for my view point.
They then go on to add the absolutely inane extension that since we are all doing illegal things should just run me over. Then I call them a fascist and nothing good comes of it.
I don't want to win an ideological battle, I just want to ride my FUCKING bike and be happy and safe when I do it!
Does anyone out there have a good way to deal with this right wing nut jobs?
I agree with your four facts. I'll add to number 1 that since we're not inside a car we can actually use our ears and hear things coming, too. The last time I drove a car in the city I found it very eerie because I couldn't hear properly. And I didn't even have the radio on, I just had the windows rolled up.
I've thought about this many times and I have decided that it's basically impossible to discuss these things with the car cultists. There's just no common frame of reference. We're using the same words but they have different internal meanings for each side. Eg. when we say lane they hear lane that I have a right to drive down unimpeded at the highest speed that is physically possible. So if we say something reasonable like on a narrow street I have to ride in the middle of the lane to avoid car doors their response is Yabut it's MY lane!!1.
As far as they're concerned the entire world is constructed for their car's convenience (which it basically is, unfortunately) and anything that is at odds with that mindset in the slightest cannot even be considered. I mean it's not even physically possible for them to conceive of the thought.
It might be possible to talk to one of these people after they've gone for a ride on a bike in the city to get a different perspective on things. That's unlikely to happen and isn't much of an answer anyway: How do you deal with right wing car loving nutjobs? Turn them into something other than right-wing car loving nutjobs :-)
I think you nailed the issue with the bit about the internal dialogs being off. When we get together and talk, we talk about the same physical issues, the "road", "traffic" but we are on two different planes.
About 3 years ago I had the idea to make a book that would attempt to resynchronize peoples internal dictionaries, so that a car driver might get a better understanding of what it is like to have 3 tons of metal blow by you, 3 inches away and unannounced. I figured why not compile all the car - bike interactions that almost any cyclist has. I wanted it raw and inhibited and as shocking as possible
For example go into Might Rider, turn right at the front desk and head toward the tires. Look around for a picture of a bike that was Run over by a big truck of some sort. From what I heard the guy heard the crunch of his bike and started rolling. The big truck tires just missed them
I think if motorists are presented with images and stories like that they may be a little less quick to who is *technically* right and think more about the human factor.
Hell with FG running on drupal we just be able to make the book right here within this site as a community effort
Have you seen this law in Idaho: Idaho Bike Statute
Here it is just because I think it is so great:
49-720. STOPPING -- TURN AND STOP SIGNALS. (1) A person operating a
bicycle or human-powered vehicle approaching a stop sign shall slow down and,
if required for safety, stop before entering the intersection. After slowing
to a reasonable speed or stopping, the person shall yield the right-of-way to
any vehicle in the intersection or approaching on another highway so closely
as to constitute an immediate hazard during the time the person is moving
across or within the intersection or junction of highways, except that a
person after slowing to a reasonable speed and yielding the right-of-way if
required, may cautiously make a turn or proceed through the intersection
without stopping.
I believe it means that cyclists may treat stop signs as Yield signs. Clause 2 (not quoted here) seems to say the same thing for red traffic lights.
Now according to this map Idaho is a Red State. Maybe the fact that rolling through stop signs is legal in a reasonalbe state like Idaho would impress your relatives.
Washington State Law RCW 46.61.755 says "every person riding a bicycle upon a roadway shall be granted all of the rights and shall be subject to all of the duties applicable to the driver of a vehicle by this chapter..."
Although this "forces" me to stop at stop signs, I wish drivers were aware of this.
To me, when biking, stop signs = yeild signs.
Blowing a stop sign or a pointless red light is a great way to get past a clump of cars. They all stop, you keep rolling, and then chances are you'll never see them again and road is yours. I have a line prepared for any driver who challenges me in this statement:
"Perhaps your operating the wrong kind of vehicle."
A buddy, Ian, had it all worked out in case he got caught by a cop when he jumps the greens. I can't remember all the details but the gist of his argument was that it was far safer to jump the green, get a head and give the car drivers some time rather than duke it out when everyone drags from a stop light and there you are fighting for your space too.
I have no idea if it would work, but I remember the time in Moab when he got out of a speeding ticked. We were off to ride the Moab rim trail and we were excited to get there that we might have driven a little fast. About 15 mph over the speed limit. When the cop pulled him over he started with "officer honestly the bikes are mine!"
Who knew that an officer could have a sense of humour! It probably helped that we were driving a car. If we had run a stop sign while riding our bikes he probably would have shot us.
I hear vancity cops are citing fixie riders who dont have a second brake. This is all hearsay from my buddy who works at MEC, but it bring up an important point: I've never even considered the possibility of getting pulled over on a bike. Has it actually happened to anyone?
While I don't want to hijack the thread, the law here is that you need a break.
By second break, I assume you mean the bike has to have two? No, the law just says break.
Personally, I have always wanted to be pulled over on a bike. Specifically I wanted to be pulled over for speeding.
For example, whenever I see those speed traps I deliberately get out of the saddle and start cranking so I can break the 50 km/hr limit. A few times I have before I reach the speed trap, which got me a laugh from cop but no ticket.
Perhaps it is because I wear glasses and look geeky. They don't precieve me as a threat and as such won't hand me a speeding ticket. But if I ever do get one, while on the bike and NOT in a 30km/hr zone, I will get my picture with the cop, frame it, then hang it on my wall after i brag about it ad ad nauseam in a bike forum or two.
Hey Wease, thanks for the credit, passing final detail is to tell the cop (who pulled you over for jumping the green to get clear of the melee) that if he were to write you a ticket and fine you for insolence, that you would continue to jump greens (ad infinitim) for your own safety as you have done for many years until now. So here you are giving me my first ticket for this corparal offence, and I'm yet to be tagged by a car leaving an intersection. Ticket 1, Injury 0. So by giving me this fine, with the knowledge that it is in no way a deterent to future misbehaviors, it is, in fact, solely a cash grab on his part. And officer, that is exactly what I will tell the judge that I told you when I see you carseat flattened ass in court! Have a nice day yourself and drive carefully! Man, that felt good just to write it here. Too bad I never got the opportunity to really use it. That brings up a question: If I rode 17000km commuting Pitt Meadows-Vancouver's roads in the last 365 days (which I did) and never once was even questioned by police about my conduct, and nobody here yet has presented a personal anecdote, why are we talking about it? K I'm done.
i was riding the other day, and rolled a stop sign, cause it was clear. the guy in the truck behind me got all pissed off, and started honking at me, then proceded to yell and scream at me. he got pissed when i flipped him off, and for a second, i was sure he was going to run me over.... scary.
i've always wanted to go riding with a shot gun strapped to my back and see how much crap i get from drivers then... it would be an interesting experiment
yep thats right fun fun fun cruising up to breakfast and i dogded cars in my usual sort of way, and gently cruised throught the light at 14th and main and when i heard the sirens i just calmly slowed to a stop without even turning around and just as i was takeing my foot out of the toe clip i'm met with a resounding welcome of "STOP RIGHT NOW" in case it wasnt clear i was just about standing still when a police cruiser barres my path and two officers proceed to berate me on my helmet (lack of) and riding style while alternately shacking thier heads at me and reminding me of how lucky i was to not be getting a dozen or so tickets right now, needless to say breakfast tasted a whole lot sweeter with the st valentines massacre, anfd its traffic habits still fresh on my lips.
the biggest issue here is because there are sooo many stupid rules about cyclists; from helmets to bells to routes and stopping we have been catered into becoming a rebelous revolutionary form of transportation so thanks to the ambiguity in our laws we have no other choice but to then fit the bill by donning a bandana around our faces and flipping the bird to traffic while firebombing the cityhall from atop our steeds of the apocalypse (not bitter at all why do you ask).
the other thing is that of traffic and thier consideration for cyclists; i am amazed at the blatant disregard for human life if a car was to fuck with a pedestrian 1/1000 as much as they fuck with any of us on any day it would be an abomonation thats was just unheard of, think about all the times you have been cut off and almost hit now if you were on foot would the thin blue line just have stood their and shook thier heads? i think not
I think you might find it harder to argue the helmet law.
Helmets save heads and since we live in a social system, I'm sure everyone here would be happier not having to pay your hospital bills. :P
And yes, I know there are a hundred counter-arguments (Heart disease a bigger drain, etc..). I even do it sometimes..
Consider this a pre-emptive, “Yes, very good point” ;)
Firstly, I always make a concerted effort to stop (or at least look like I'm stopping) at lights and stop signs when there are cars around.
But. Roads were designed with cars in mind. Take for example a car travelling the speed limit down a road approaching a stop sign. If they were making a quick stop (which most drivers do) they will break, size up the intersection, and then motor on through. As a biker you are much higher and usually have a much better view of the intersection. You can see what’s going on before you even begin to break. In addition to this, most bikes on are travelling much slower. You are able to better use those last couple of feet before the intersection to see the situation. Take notice next time you are riding and driving. You’ll probably notice that you are better aware of the intersection when you are on a bike, because you begin sizing up the situation much earlier.
I would maintain that the average biker blowing a stop sign has a better idea of the intersection than the average driver who comes to a complete stop. Of course there all the questions of maneuverability etc. only add to the biker argument, but it looks like other people have covered that pretty well.
But as a rule for myself. Cars around? Stop.
This is just to test as I was trying to post the comment but it failed.
I'm totally a road rule follower. I'm always standing with all those who are supporting road rules. As, road rules are made for us, so they should be followed.
I think the main point to consider is that none of the rules of the road are made for us. They are made for motor vehicles. If cycling had been the dominant force in the last century you would have seen a much different set of road rules. That is why we shouldn't blindly follow the rules of the road.
How far from a stop sign must you come to an complete stop? What is the min. & max distance in feet should you abserve? From the crosswalk, marked line or just a sign at a corner?
Haha! I do the exact same thing at stop signs. One of these days I am going to get pulled over for not coming to a complete stop!
When I am on a bike, I like to refer to a stop sign as an "octagonal yield".
I'd say a rolling stop is any time you slow down, but do not completely stop the forward momentum.
At least this is the definition I use when I see cops around the neighborhood.
Yeah, the cops love to look for that "rolling stop"
Just while we're on the topic of bylaws has anyone been pulled over for riding with headphones on? As much as I appreciate being completely aware of my surroundings and tapping into ALL my senses while riding my bike, I also really enjoy having good tunes in my headphones to rip to. But my buddy mentioned the other day that he was pulled over for having his headphones on!...Is this for real? Has this happened to anyone else?